Do you mean that the playa encourages open sexuality in women differently than it does for men?
I think I see some of what you mean and agree that there can be differences in approach, but do believe that women can be "sexy" and respected at the same time.
Most of the women I respect are sexy, be it because they physically, mentally or emotionally integrate their sexuality so it's not simply a tool. Lots of times, it's attitude. Rarely does size enter into it. It's an "it" - there or not. Fostered or not. Don't even think it has to do with having sex itself. It's definetly not there when wanting to be invisible for myself lol.

It doesn't surprise me about say the photos of fat men being more predominant than fat women, that's sort of an odd american norm - look at sitcoms for examples of the couch potato husband and model-like wife.

Interesting topic...

"issues I have with respect, respectability and something that's not quite coercion, but more an encouragement to interact with people in ways that involve sexuality."

i apologize if i'm missing your point -- i read and re-read your post many times to try to get to the essence of it. i'm generally a pretty astute reader.

i believe that you are saying that you are used to being fairly 'non-sexy' in your external behavior, but on the playa, you felt that people interacted with you differently when you dressed in a 'sexy' way and treated you as more invisible when you wore ordinary clothing, and that some were encouraging you to be more bold sexually. and you are sorting out what that implies. is that close?

i must say that i don't get your martyr reference, either, not in the context of your question, nor in what you are apparently implying about the other women in the tribe. where do martyrs come into this?

i am, however, very struck with your statement that "i try not to be anything at all." as well as in your first post when you said you didn't want to lose weight because you didn't want to "be that kind of a woman." both of these things seem to re-emphasize a desire to be invisible, to avoid people's judgments, and to not rock the boat. and while that may be safe, it doesn't really support a kick-ass life, and i'm all about a kick-ass life.

if you have read my profile and know what i do for a profession, you won't be surprised at my suggestion... how about being who you are? how about dressing and acting in as 'sexy' of a way as you feel like, and seeing what happens then?

i get that you're trying to work out what it is exactly that triggers you, or feels not quite right. but i personally believe that the way to happiness is to learn who you are, and to be that, as big and as bold as that is. you know if you like the idea of being more adventurous in how you interact with people, you know if the idea of wearing hotter clothes or however you choose to physically express your individuality is something that is exciting to you.

i also get that this isn't just about clothes, but they make a good illustration -- when i shop for clothes with people, i tell them not to choose just based on how something looks... the way to choose is to see how the clothes make you *feel* about yourself. you know, the stuff you put on and think "shit, i could never get away with wearing *that*!" but your heart is beating faster, and you know deep inside, you would love to wear that, even if it felt like a costume at first.

those are the clothes to wear, the things that make you step up, be bolder, go one step closer into the realm of discovering more of the aspects of who you are. and if that means interacting with people in a more sexual way, you go for it. and if not, that's ok too.

anybody hear an echo? without... within...

interestingly, i *feel* more powerful the more freely i feel i can express my sexuality.

i am what i am... and i love to share it and flaunt it to the world!

and why the hell not?!

The hair - and men wonder why we are so damn emotionally attached to it.

Absolutely makes a difference on how treated. I keep mine long and will not change it into the standard bob but that's just cause I like longer hair more than myself with short hair. I don't think it has to be done. I wonder if it's because the short haircuts are more masculine and that's still the default in certain professions? Or is it just because women in leadership roles have more to deal with than drying/styling long hair? It could be totally practical reasons that morph into a "uniform" and subconsciously people take similar qualities to mean "leader".

I think the company makes a difference. Look at this link for the top 50 women in business money.cnn.com/popups/2006...omen/34.html most have shorter hair but certainly not all.

> Worst of all there was a sort of discomfort by my peers,
> as not someone who belonged in their boys locker room.
> In short, I recognized that the problem was a very subtle one.

I think this is something women encounter whenever they enter into spaces that have been marked as "manly". I get a similar feeling in the weight room at my gym (obviously this is less intense than having to deal with it the whole time you are in school and in your career)--because for whatever reason lifting weights is seen as "masculine" and the idea that I might want to enjoy the sport is seen as suspect. It's as though the dudes felt my very presence in "their" space was taking away from their masculinity.

And like you I wish I didn't have to say anything about it, ever. I want to just go in there and do my thing and the only conversation I want to have with anyone is "can I work in between your sets" but because I am a woman in a masculine space that option is not available to me. I have to in some way deal with it.

Some of the answers I've seen in this thread about changing your attitude or getting more confidence or getting self-actualized or whatever, really irk me. I can be as self actualized as I want to be and dudes will still come up to me in the gym to "inform" me that deadlifting will make my uterus fall out. Eventually the dudes in the free weight room get used to me and it's more OK, but then I take on the odious role of Representative of All Women Everywhere.


> Later in the conversation, it happened to come up that
> I had a degree in electrical engineering. He looked
> like I'd hit him in the stomach; like I had somehow violated him.

Electrical engineering isn't very lady-like. I'm sure you must have punctured the poor dude's reality bubble. Maybe he went away with a slightly more open mind.

> can't help but think about the Muslim women I know who
> choose to wear the head scarves and the concealing clothing.
> They argue that it allows them to express their personhood
> instead of their bodies.

I've actually thought about wearing that kind of stuff at BM. But it's a bit of a double bind. Either you hide your sexual nature in the hopes of having your personhood acknowledge (and are instead mostly ignored), or you let your sexual nature be visible and then all that people acknowledge is your sexual nature. It's extremely frustrating. It's not always exactly like that, but it's like that enough of the time to make me annoyed. Still it's no different than what I encounter in the everyday world, so ti's not exactly a shock (just a dissapointment that the experimental community falls into the same traps).

I've been trying to be gracious when reading this thread, but over and over, every post you make seems to say the same thing:
instead of owning your sexuality and body image, you are allowing yourself to be a victim to other people's perceptions and reactions. You are allowing yourself to be penned in by your own perceptions of what is right and wrong as a woman. And you are placing the blame on others, rather than finding a peaceful balance within yourself.


"I haven't lost the weight I put on during an extended disability because I don't want to be seen as that kind of woman."

and what kind of woman is that? you're judging there. you're implying that people who want to take care of their appearance or feel better when they lose weight are a lesser quality of person. That's a sexist view that women who are attentive to their appearance or sexuality are vapid or slutty.


"lose the few extra pounds without feeling like I'm making myself into some kind of barbie doll. "

This sounds to me like you're struggling with body issues and serious judgments. People should do what makes them feel good about their body, without subjecting themselves to such narrow views that you only have 2 choices: mindless barbie doll or overweight.


"The sexiness is a serious issue as I find people interacting with my body rather than my mind."

again, I just keep getting these clear signals from your posts that you are having big issues with your own sexuality and your body. That's something you need to look inward to resolve, not outward. The problem is not society or other people, it's your own perception and judgments about your actions. I'll venture that if you stop seeking approval from people you'll begin to own yourself. Start commanding people's interaction instead of passively being led by it. Start setting boundaries. If you act like a quivering rabbit when it comes to people's responses to you, hiding your body or sexuality people will sense it and you are not going to get the respect you are seeking.


"Sexuality is a form of power, and quite a motivating one at that. I don't think a lot of women realize this because sometimes it's the only power they can wield."

No, sexual INFLUENCE is a form of power. Sexuality is a normal human state, some are more at peace with it than others. And there are many many other forms of power women can wield. Just because someone responds to you in a sexual manner (or you perceive it to be so) doesn't mean you're in a vulnerable state. You seem to be giving power to people instead of commanding it for yourself.


"'ve had a series of bad experiences with men, though, in terms of objectification and so forth... I don't want to be put in that box again"

Again, personal issues with gender roles, body image, sexuality. Not all men are bad creatures to be feared. Yes some people will be jerks and treat you like an object. How you respond determines whether you are under their thumb or not. You are not the only women who has ever had to deal with these issues. If you don't want to be put in that box, then don't be. Change your response. Don't internalize their garbage. It sounds like in an attempt to avoid one box you are simply creating another for yourself.


"That's it. I really really hate to take on a "feminist" attitude and do not consider myself a feminist... "

Sorry, but again another judgment. That feminist is somehow a bad word. You know, if you have self-respect and desire others to treat you with respect then you are somehow over demanding, an unappealing woman, whatever. Which is exactly what many sexist people believe, the same sexist people you seem to be wanting to avoid. Frankly, EVERY WOMAN should consider themselves a feminist. There are many different feminists movements, but I can't even fathom why someone would feel that they aren't worthy enough to expect equal treatment and respect.

I don't mean to be harsh here, but it just sounds like you are continually buying into the very things you claim to dislike and passing along the same judgments that you feel victim to. There are ways to get more comfortable with yourself if you wish to discuss that, but it has to start with you taking ownership and dropping the victim role.

Quite possibly the most offensive sexual attitude I've had from men (and being a strong-type woman, I get this a lot) is one of "come over here girl and do me!" *shudder*<<

What kind of guys are you hanging out with?!

I hang with some quite "unabashedly interested in hot chicks" males and they know better than to say that to any woman. Especially when she is a strong type woman, as that is the very type of woman that will most likely go right over and whack them upside the head.


>>>>>>My experience has been that people can sense a lack of confidence and comfort with yourself. And those who like to prey upon that will be quick to seize the opportunity. As you gain and exude confidence you minimize their ability to see you as someone who can be manipulated, dominated, intimidated, or dismissed.<<<<<


THIS. This is one of the most truthiest things I have read on this tribe.

"My experience has been that people can sense a lack of confidence and comfort with yourself. And those who like to prey upon that will be quick to seize the opportunity. As you gain and exude confidence you minimize their ability to see you as someone who can be manipulated, dominated, intimidated, or dismissed."

This is a REALLY interesting assessment. It explains a lot of what I was seeing and experiencing this year. It was my first burn, and camping alone I didn't have much advice or guidance from experienced burners. I had a lot of confidence what I was doing was right, but a few slightly bad circumstances right at the beginning were enough to undermine my comfort level with those around me. Only after I was able to stop caring did things really get fun. I wish someone would have told me to just let it go.

It kind of reminds me of a discussion I had with a guy I was dating when I was invited for Easter Dinner with his wealthy grandparents at their country club. I tend to use utensils in... interesting ways, and was asking him if I should eat like other people. He said it really didn't matter how I used the utensils so long as I used them well.

Thanks for the great advice!

these last posts are very well said!

and valkyrie, i think maybe the place for you to look for your confusion is in your statement that you don't consider yourself a feminist, yet you have issues with people filtering who you are, or are expected to be, through your gender.

i totally get that you are in a male-dominated field, made up in great part of men who aren't always the most socially sophisticated (at least in my experience with a big geek-heavy social world, and my experience doing technical recruiting).

but i you think that you are filtered differently because you are a woman and that is not fair, then you are a feminist. if you believe that you should be evaluated on what you do, not your gender, then you are a feminist. why do you resist that? though i do feel that the word has been a bit tainted with a sense of anger and man-hating, neither of which describes me, so like you, i prefer a different word. i like to call myself a humanist.

and i entirely agree that confidence is the key here -- being hesitant about who you are, wondering what people think of you, imagining that they discount you because of your hair or body or gender, and sidestepping or minimizing your power will indeed create a different result than just stepping up and being powerful about yourself.

and as far as people perceiving you on the playa... apologies if i'm paraphrasing wrong but... as an example, that might look like saying "hey, i'm an EE and a frickin' genius at wiring neon and creating lighting systems (or whatever you love to do), and i'd like to volunteer for your art project... who do i talk to?" is a more powerful place to come from than bemoaning not having people understand what you really have to offer, and then feeling put off that they're surprised when you mention it later. it's always better to learn to toot your own horn when you want people to know what you can do, i think.

holding back keeps everyone from experiencing the real you, doesn't it?